When you desire change and speak about the changes you want to make, even when the signs are there it can be hard to take that first step. Once you do, you see the big impacts that those changes can make, you rethink what you thought you knew about failure and can find value in yourself instead of your profession or job title.

In this episode, Carlos and Susanne have a conversation with Bryan Kramer & Courtney Smith-Kramer who share their story on shutting. down their thriving agency and designing their next steps as a couple. They give insights into how we can rethink what we see as a failure, how little shifts can lead to big change, and the value of vulnerability with ourselves and with others.